Finish The Race
But it ignores Romans 10:12-15
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
The verses that have been used to dissuade having women as leaders in the church are correct in their language, however, you have Pricilla and other women historically (remember Constatine's mother Helena?) and others who occupied decidedly influential leadership roles in the church. In the histories of the early church you have Paul (who being in the Sanhedrin) who still clung to many old tenants of the Judeo religion.
Remember he was on the fast track within the theocratic government.
Remember he was on the fast track within the theocratic government.
Many of his sayings in the Bible are even prefaced by, "I have nothing specific of God, but...." or essence such (let's not get caught up if that was a perfect quote).
Most memorable is his unctions concerning marriage. But when God laid out the hierarchy of His Church, which is a Pauline presentation, all of the things of God were laid out "gender-neutral" but when asked of, or espousing on, the "mechanisms" of God, he fell back to the patriarchal philosophies and tradition of Judaism. As is followed; Romans 7: 2:
Most memorable is his unctions concerning marriage. But when God laid out the hierarchy of His Church, which is a Pauline presentation, all of the things of God were laid out "gender-neutral" but when asked of, or espousing on, the "mechanisms" of God, he fell back to the patriarchal philosophies and tradition of Judaism. As is followed; Romans 7: 2:
"For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband."
He was very adamant about the Law and it's use in the new church.
But we also have; 1 Corinthians 11: 5:
"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."
In the context of the verse, he makes a direct reference to a leadership role in the church without any caveats. He does however reiterate that a woman is under a man's authority as it pertains to God's division of duties between themselves, but not in the application to the church.
Is he contradicting himself? Hardly. He is saying that if a man is active in the church then the woman's subjugation is to the man first, however again the qualification, 1 Corinthians 11: 12:
"For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but ALL things of God."He has just qualified the hierarchy.
And actually before you get to the New Testament you have Deborah who was a judge and over all Israel. Need scripture? Well then, Judges 4:4&5:
"And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment."
And that is in the old patriarchal society of Israel.
Remember there is the Law and there is Grace. Man forgets that Christ fulfilled the Law and brought Grace for us to live under — changing the Law to the Promises under Grace. In THAT all are equal in requirement to God. So the only unction that seems applicable under Grace is, if you are called, answer it. Nothing more, especially about gender-specific things.
As I said in the beginning, everyone has ammunition on this issue. And everyone has an opinion. It can be a truly divisive issue. In the end only God can give true clarity, but the value here is to explore the issue and then let God enlighten the spirit.
I for one have no problem with female leadership, as long as, the head of THAT leadership is God. I have no problem with male leadership, if it complies with that same standard. In the end it's all about being spiritually fed, by the principles and truths of God, He who is the foundation of all truth.
Remember there is the Law and there is Grace. Man forgets that Christ fulfilled the Law and brought Grace for us to live under — changing the Law to the Promises under Grace. In THAT all are equal in requirement to God. So the only unction that seems applicable under Grace is, if you are called, answer it. Nothing more, especially about gender-specific things.
As I said in the beginning, everyone has ammunition on this issue. And everyone has an opinion. It can be a truly divisive issue. In the end only God can give true clarity, but the value here is to explore the issue and then let God enlighten the spirit.
I for one have no problem with female leadership, as long as, the head of THAT leadership is God. I have no problem with male leadership, if it complies with that same standard. In the end it's all about being spiritually fed, by the principles and truths of God, He who is the foundation of all truth.
Things to think about in this argument. God is clear on the subject, He simply uses whom He will. And God does not consult man on His choices. Enough said.
Be blessed, be loved and be at peace. May the light of God's glory and presence fire the brilliance of your souls. You are greatly loved.
THE USA TEA PARTY PATRIOTS -- MAY GOD FOREVER BLESS AMERICA AND HER PEOPLE
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1Timothy 2 -
[7] Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
[8] I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
[9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
[11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
[14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
[15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
As can be seen, this is a matter that applies to Gentile as well as Jew. We also see that, since the justification extends back to the time of the Garden of Eden, that it is not a cultural manfestation of the times, but an edict that is continuous and for all time. With that, I would conclude that it is any ideas to the contrary that are a manefestation of the culture of the times; not the word of God.
A woman is to be niether a teacher nor a pastor in the congregation. This is to be the order of things within the church. Spiritually is a different matter, which I believe you have already covered.
Hmmm, Roeh, no attribution? OK, so be it....
You really have no eyes to see, no ears to hear, and no understanding heart. You have no innate ability to divide the word of truth. This selfsame apostle declared that there was no difference when all are in Christ. None esteemed by God one over another. But you can only see the teachings of a Pharisee who then explains the difference between what he teaches and the difference of what God teaches.
But you have not understanding because you do not WANT understanding. One passage of scripture by design interprets another passage. Thus the call to rightly divide the truth. You do not have this ability and espouse pet verses to co-call *prove* your point. (this to Sha'ul, Jay and Roeh). Roles of gender are what they are, and not of private interpretation, but roles of discipleship are defined by God. You like passages? Well Luke 9:23, and such.
Let's look at Acts 10:34 "And Peter opened his mouth and said: Most certainly and thoroughly I now perceive and understand that God shows no partiality and is no respecter of persons," And this from your vaunted Apostle Paul. If you want to use the Word of God, then use it all..... in context, in culture, and in truth. God's truth.
And we will finish this on Facebook
Roeh on Facebook you said: "Well seeing as I am a Messianic probably coming from two totally different perspectives. I do follow Jewish law as did Y'shua."
My reply?
Christ did not follow the Talmud, or the ceremonial laws fulfilled in Him. Matthew 22 and then 14 tells us a few things about what and HOW things were fulfilled. Christ did not have the New Testament. He had the Law and Prophets, however that fulfilled all things. So He operated in the Baruck Haba and told others to be perfect even as God was perfect. (Matthew 5:48) So we see a focus that does not divide sexes, but divides discipleship. It is Romans that gives you understanding on these things (Chapters 6-8). So being Messianic does not give you a special perspective on things. But perhaps a blindness to overcome....
I leave you with this:
Galatians 4:12 "Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are [ a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [ in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now]." (Amplified)
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